Live-Blogging Mesh 2008

 Live Blog:  Mesh 08 (05/21/2008) 
Powered by: CoveritLive
davefleet –  Stuart MacDonald is up on stage intro-ing Mesh 2008. Looking forward to a great conference.
davefleet –  Check out for an awesome Mesh schedule app for your blackberry
[Comment From Colin McKay]
I like Stuart’s pants – he doesn’t have to follow the all black dress code, obviously
davefleet –  Mathew Ingram up on stage. Doesn’t sound like people here have had enough coffee yet.
davefleet –  Ingram just introduced Ethan Caplan from Warner Bros Records for today’s first keynote session
davefleet –  Caplan: as an artist when you’re not as dependent on the mode of representation, you can focus more on what you represent
davefleet –  Caplan: Useful to look at record labels in the same way you view venture capital firms. They’ve been under fire for a while but they’re still around.
davefleet –  Caplan: NIN and Radiohead took advantage of a lack of need for specific channels but they still relied on record labels throughout their careers
davefleet –  Oops – Ethan Kaplan, not Caplan 🙂
9:39 [Poll]
Do record companies provide a necessary bedrock of support for artists nowadays?

 ( 0% )


 ( 100% )

Not sure

 ( 0% )

[Comment From Chris Clarke]
you should be live twittering this
davefleet –  Clarkey – who knows if Twitter will be up in 5 minutes?
[Comment From Chris Clarke]
fair enough…but if twitter goes down, we’re bringing you down!
davefleet –  Ingram: David Usher referred to Radiohead and NIN’s efforts as stunts, not a new business model. What does a new business model involving the web look like?
davefleet –  Kaplan: You have to re-evaluate what you’re producing and how that will be consumed. Artists have to consider what you want to represent, how you represent it and how you control it.
davefleet –  Kaplan seems to think that ‘control’ equals having a good lawyer. Can you control this stuff any more? Reminds me a little of the RIAA…
davefleet –  I think the digital environment has proved you need to give up some control
davefleet –  Kaplan: A&R is starting to apply to technology online as well as music. People are now “A&R-ing” their products. Sounds like PR to me…
davefleet –  Benchmark of free used to be radio… upsell was then cds… then concerts… if we move the baseline above cds (i.e. make them free), the revenue has to be pushed further up the chain
davefleet –  I don’t see how there’s room for record companies in that business though. The music industry, sure, but not record companies.
[Comment From Brad Buset]
the artists I follow have no problem with concerts being the profit model
davefleet –  Audience question: Will the work required to engage through social media affect the creative work produced by artists? Very time consuming.
davefleet –  Kaplan: A good artist knows when to back away and knows where the barrier is between engaging and producing creative
davefleet –  Kaplan – now a fan site can have more traffic than their ‘official’ site. Creates an interesting dynamic
davefleet –  When WB or other labels gets involved in a community, is there a balancing act in order to satisfy fans’ demands for authenticity?
davefleet –  Kaplan: Label is just behind the scenes. WB logo not on any band sites. Big danger comes when you start astro-turfing. You need to let artists speak directly to fans
davefleet –  From Twitter: Canuckflack: #mesh08 I’d like to see the VP of Tech and the VP of Legal from Warner doing this talk at the same time – THAT would be a FIRESTORM!


davefleet –  Qn: How do you find artists from the social media space rather than the traditional model?
davefleet –  Kaplan: WB has A&R people that go to shows every night to discover new bands. They have 300 or so hardcore music fans that love finding new music
davefleet –  Ingram: Does social media make it easier to promote a new band?
davefleet –  Kaplan: The challenge is how do you take local support and transfer it to an emerging scene- how do you scale it? REM had this problem – lost support and had to almost re-start.
davefleet –  Kaplan: The identity of the label isn’t as important as the identity of the artist.
davefleet –  I still haven’t heard a compelling explanation of where the record company fits now and adapts to the new environment.
[Comment From Brad Buset]
If the identity of the label isn’t as important, and fan/crowd based support of marketing is growing – I’m interested if record industry % of take is dropping
[Comment From LeahAtMesh]
Wow. This is great. Wonder if i can get it onto my blog, this would be much better than trying to tweet or blog.
davefleet –  Leah – I think you may be able to grab the code from CoverIt, or dm me your email and I’ll send you the embed code
davefleet –  WB has a catalogue of 85,000 tunes over 50 years. wow.
davefleet –  Kaplan: The opening of APIs and of SDKs for devices open up a lot of things that haven’t been thought of yet.
davefleet –  Qn: What did you think of CBS’s acquisition of LastFM?
davefleet –  Kaplan: You almost wish a data analysis company acquired them. Shame Nielsen didn’t get them. Seems to have become a bit of a walled garden.
davefleet –  Kaplan: Video games are a big market that caught some people by surprise. Interesting to see Rock Band, Guitar Hero drive single-song downloads. They’re forcing songs up onto the top 20 of iTunes, Amazon
davefleet –  Kaplan: Video games are the same ‘experience’ model as music. Experiences can drive revenue more than artifacts.
davefleet –  Kaplan: Video games that use music as a central concept are driving the point back to what music is
davefleet –  From @doctorjones on twitter: Go to it’s aggregating everything tagged mesh08 on blogs, flickr, twitter
davefleet –  Kaplan: If your distribution costs are zero, your pricing must change. Pricing is currently related to a lot more than traditional costs. When you remove the supply chain from the model, you have to go back to providing value.
[Comment From andrewcherwenka]
dave, you’re the best. i have to dash out for the next speaker but i know i won’t miss a thing.
davefleet –  Andrew – I love that you posted that instead of turning around and telling me 🙂
davefleet –  Mark Blevis is asking a question – what’s the dynamic between concerts/live music and music sales and the opportunity to buy concerts as you leave the venue?
davefleet –  I had this conversation with him last night…
davefleet –  Kaplan: Live music is more popular than ever right now. It’s the root of the music experience. Live recordings are an untapped market – unofficial bootleg downloads drop when they’re sold in higher quality by the band – see Pearl Jam.
davefleet –  Kaplan – went to a concert at SXSW and people were twittering from the front row. That’s a little sad. Blackberries away at concerts, people!
[Comment From LeahAtMesh]
I don’t know, my friend was at the Led Zepplin reunion concert in london and people appreciated his live-tweeting the set list.
[Comment From michaelocc]
SXSW isn’t a “concert” in the usual sense. It’s a happening, baby.
davefleet –  Leah – interesting!
davefleet –  Michael – thanks…. baby…
davefleet –  Kaplan – the concept of a record label has diffused itself
davefleet –  Clarkey just asked the elephant-in-the-room question – apart from a band that I’m a super fan of, why would I pay for music ever again?
davefleet –  Kaplan – whether you like it or now, you’re paying for music by listening to it in other channels. Seems a bit weak.
[Comment From RaWeiss]
That sounds like a cop-out. I was on the edge of my seat after Clarkey’s question… Now I’m slouched.
davefleet –  Kaplan thinks paying for music will change to paying for unlimited streaming through a set-top box or similar. I disagree. People like owning things. I don’t want some transient ownership.
davefleet –  Kaplan – hard to tell whether Facebook or MySpace is winning. Different audiences, and they serve different purposes. MySpace is like the salad bar of content, FB is like a tasting
davefleet –  Kaplan – labels are dependent on filtering. If a record label doesn’t filter, it’s not a label
davefleet –  Break for a bit. Next up: Michael Geist
10:40 [Be Right Back Countdown] 5 minutes 
davefleet –  Michael Geist’s keynote is about to start. This should be a good session
davefleet –  Michael Geist talking about the Federal government’s plans to change copyright laws in Canada
davefleet –  Geist started the Fair Copyright for Canada group on Facebook and got thousands of members in days. Also blogged about it, created a video version of the post on YouTube. Cory Doctorow on Boing Boing got involved, CBC’s Search Engine tried to crowd-source an interview with the industry minister
davefleet –  Story made the front page of the Globe and Mail one day.
davefleet –  300 people showed up at the Industry Minister’s offices to protest
davefleet –  Check out Search Engine’s post here:
davefleet –  Geist just gave three examples of advocacy taking place online – including a 1984-esque anti-Hillary YouTube video
davefleet –  Here’s the Hillary ad:
davefleet – created a map of deaths in Kenya during the ethnic violence –
davefleet –  Geist: What makes digital advocacy effective?
davefleet –  1. Organizing power of these tools
davefleet –  2. Online and Offline – meetup tools, facebook profiles lead to offline protests
davefleet –  3. Mainstream media – what gets reported online gets reported offline – for example Senator George Allen’s “Macaca” moment
davefleet –  Here’s the video of that:
davefleet –  GlobalVoices brings together voices from remote communities. Their voices are translated into English for a broad audience.
davefleet –  More than 4mm people viewed a 37-minute Obama video online – would never get that on TV other than live coverage
davefleet –  4. Education – GlobalVoices was an example
davefleet –  5. … didn’t catch this one!
6. Speed. For example, the student arrested in Egypt recently who twittered that fact
7. New digital tools – see Tunisian Prison Map (, Wikileaks
8. Localized – Facebook is a great example for Canada
[Comment From LeahAtMesh]
5 is the need to bring action.
davefleet –  Thanks Leah!
davefleet –  9. Government 2.0 – the need for governments to be receptive to citizens. UK government encouraged people to submit questions for the PM to answer
davefleet –  UK government launched E-petitions page that citizens could use. Gov’t uses it as a barometer to test opinions
davefleet –  10. General purpose sites – Michael J Fox YouTube video during senate campaign
[Comment From LeahAtMesh]
and here’s the disney mash-up
davefleet –  Rather than single-purpose custom sites – hard to block general purpose sites when large numbers of people use them for looking at things like ‘cute cats.’ Much easier for oppressive governments to shut down niche sites.
davefleet –  @rhh (from Twitter) and Michael Geist now sitting down for conversation
davefleet –  Are Facebook advocacy groups essentially a group of transient tourists?
davefleet –  Geist – every time you get a group of 40,000 people together, there will be extremes but the Search Engine case, for example, was very high quality in terms of contributions.
davefleet –  Geist – whether or not people are experts, government laws will apply to them. Issues like net neutrality and copyright affect everyone.
davefleet –  Rob Hyndman (interviewer) – from a public policy perspective, who are the real experts and who should I be listening to?
davefleet –  Hyndman – are policy makers staying aware of what’s happening out here? Are they astute enough?
davefleet –  Geist – there’s no single answer. On some issues policy makers are into what’s happening and embracing the feedback loop. Part of the problem in Canada is that the issues have become about politics rather than policy. What’s driving things is politics, not what’s right for Canada.
davefleet –  Geist – politicians are paying attention, if not to the policies then to the politicial ramifications of what they’re doing. Copyright bill was an example of that – “stepped back from the brink” last December after the protests. Politicians are more aware of the political capital that policies may cost them
davefleet –  Hyndman – sense is that we don’t have the intensity of politics/blogging in Canada that they do down in the US
davefleet –  Geist – the noise that political blogging has is less than in the US, but there are some interesting examples – for example, the Privacy Commissioner’s blog. We’re not where they are in the US though.
davefleet –  Privacy commissioner’s blog:
davefleet –  Geist – artists are entitled to copyright. Likes that Kaplan didn’t mention the need for legislation, lawsuits etc. However, that’s not what we’re hearing at the policy advocacy level from record labels.
leahjones –  This will be my only blurb about coveritlive, but thanks Dave for adding me as a panelist!
davefleet –  One of the key learnings from the US campaign is that they’ve successfully identified people who haven’t voted before
davefleet –  They’ve successfully identified the issues that are important to these people
leahjones –  A conversation I’ve heard is that while they’ve gotten people to donate and be active online, will they actually get them to the polls come election day.

davefleet –  @thornley asking whether there’s potential for citizen advocates to get caught up in lawsuits – Geist is getting sued for linking to a blog
davefleet –  Great question!
leahjones –  Is digital advocacy just for geek issues? Absolutely not. I agree with Geist that we’ll see these tools being used for and by non-geeks. During Kaplan’s talk, I was thinking about the lessons for writers from how musicians are using digital tools.
davefleet –  Geist – in the US people have some protection. Not in Canada. There’s no fool-proof way to protect yourself other than being factual and not defamatory. Side-effect: you also gain credibility.
davefleet –  However, the more credibility you get, the more you can be a target
leahjones –  I need a t-shirt that says “no silver bullet.” The more tools we get, the chances of finding a silver bullet shrinks more and more and more.
davefleet –  This is a great presentation.
davefleet –  From @doctorjones on Twitter: “I didn’t expect to be so captivated listening to 2 lawyers. Figured it would be divorce court before mesh.”
leahjones –  Have learned more about copyright this morning, that I have in the last year. Orphan Copyrights in the USA.
davefleet –  Audience question – how do you turn people from observers that just use FB to show their political leanings into proactive advocates?
leahjones –  It’s hard to get people more engaged, but getting them into facebook group is a good first step.

davefleet –  Geist – it’s hard to get those people more engaged, but getting them into the group and exposing them to the issue is a good starting point.
davefleet –  If you’re interested in a great technology solution to the problems with the last Facebook question, check out Will Pate
[Comment From RaWeiss]
Are they talking about the Orphan Copyrights subject? I heard about that on TWiT this week, apparently they’ll be talking about it more in upcoming podcasts.
[Comment From motionblur]
Geist’s presentation and q&a session have been the best so far.
davefleet –  End of a great presentation.
leahjones –  That was certainly worth the flight up from Chicago. Everyone needs to invite him to their conference.
davefleet –  Watching video of yesterday’s MeshU sessions

davefleet –  15 minutes of fame about to start
leahjones –  I saw a tweet earlier from one of the start-ups, very excited to see the presentations. Also loving to learn more about CanCon.
davefleet –  AideRSS up first. Cool service – interested in this one
davefleet –  AideRSS is an intelligent RSS filtering service
davefleet –
leahjones –  Talking about the attention crash, Steve Rubel and Hugh MacLeod have both written about it. Off to find links.
davefleet –  Ilya Grigorik – AideRSS is about providing an extra layer of metadata on top of RSS feeds to enhance peoples’ reading experiences. huh?
leahjones –  Here is a bit from Steve Rubel (an edelman colleague of mine)

davefleet –  AideRSS will be succesful because…. “RSS is becoming the glue of the Internet.”
leahjones –  How are you gonna make money?

By selling data, is that the answer he gave.

davefleet –  Next up – GigPark –
davefleet –  “An easy way to find the trusted services your friends use.”
leahjones –  How is GigPark different than Angie’s List?
leahjones –  Now we’ve got up and Daniel Crawford.
davefleet –  Carbonetworks takes CO2, emissions and translates them into dollars. Would be good to know how…
12:24 [Poll]
Which was the best 15 minutes presentation?

 ( 50% )


 ( 50% )


 ( 0% )

davefleet –  Three good (and quick) presentations. Which one did you like the most?
leahjones –  going offline for lunch, see you after.
[Comment From Jonathan]
These guys are doing a lot of Liveblogging of this event too
leahjones –  Back and I’m in the Location panel post-lunch.
davefleet –  I’m in the Video Is Everywhere panel with Amber MacArthur, Dina Kaplan, Andre Gaulin and Guineverre Orvic
davefleet –  Andre Gaulin is tasked with bringing “online social media craziness” to television for CTV
leahjones –  This features Nora Young from CBC and Bill Buxton from MSFT. (MSFT is an Edelman client, I’m at Edelman Digital)… and let’s start.
davefleet –  Guinevere Orvis works for CBC – involved in first-ever use of Bit Torrent
davefleet –  Dina Kaplan is from BlipTV – episodic content video for the web
leahjones –  when does tele-presence work vs. when must you be in person?
[Comment From Brad Buset]
pop-up video for conferences starts anew
leahjones –  The long nose of innovation–takes a long time for things to get from idea to deployable.
davefleet –  BlipTV tries to maximise the revenue-generating potential for content producers. Works with just about every video ad company you can imagine.

IAB just set pre-roll, post-roll advertising standards about a week and a half ago.

davefleet –  Content producers can opt in or out of each ad network as they choose.
leahjones –  Technology sector has underestimated the importance of green/carbon/environmentalism. In the next two years–> will become taboo and inappropriate to read a newspaper in print. Bill Braxton
leahjones –  “you’re violating my social protocol” as bill gets UP IN Nora’s face to illustrate bad design, approach, departure.
davefleet –  CTV started getting into the video game about 2 years ago. Worked with Viacom, licensed content for Comedy Network. Seen a huge uptake as technology developed. Just got rights to shows like Grey’s Anatomy, Lost, etc.
davefleet –  CTV is serving over 10 million videos per month. Almost too successful. Streaming costs increased hugely so kind of a double-edged sword.
leahjones –  “are there specific areas in the room that have specific social function?”

For each place in the room that has a specific social function, the teleworking person should be able to occupy.

The desk, a table, the doorway.

leahjones –  It’s not a loud-spearker, it is a surragate mouth. It isn’t a video, it is a surragate eye. It isn’t a speaker, it is a surragate ear.
davefleet –  CTV learned that rights and licensing are extremely complicated. Music, TV videos all have different requirements. Have to jump through a lot of hoops to suuport different delivery forms – flash, even WMP10. It’s an exercise in flexibility.
davefleet –  Many original content developers didn’t think of the web so there are licensing issues with old content.
davefleet –  Amber: Is there a fear of moving video to the web inside CTV?
davefleet –  Andre: Perhaps with old-school types. There are lots of people who want to watch content on tv. However, it reflects really well on CTV if people miss an episode and they can catch up online.
davefleet –  Guinevere agrees that licensing is a big issue.
1:49 [Poll]
Which session are you in?
Video is everywhere

 ( 60% )

Does location matter?

 ( 40% )

Podcasting workshop

 ( 0% )

leahjones –  “how do you get soft or subtle communications with colleagues when working at a distance?”

TWITTER… says Leah.

davefleet –  As a public broadcaster, CBC doesn’t perhaps have as deep a wallet as private companies. Peer-to-peer models can be a solution to that as distribution costs are almost zero.

A lot of CBC’s audience is already watching video online. 40% of The Hour’s audience is getting it online – podcasts, web, etc

davefleet –  Amber: How do you monetize content when you can strip almost all of BlipTV’s branding out?
davefleet –  Dina: They feel like it would be improper to impose their brand on shows. They decided to let shows build their own brands. They cater their service to top content creators. BlipTV can monetize views of the videos regardless of where they’re viewed and do ad sales on them. 50/50 revenue split with producers.
leahjones –  How do you compensate for technology? Add peripheral cameras, that you can see more body language.

Why not put in a camera that just points at a blank wall?

When people work in open space on one floor, meetings are opportunistic and mostly 3 minutes. Split to two floors and meetings took a week to schedule, went to 30 or 60 minutes.

leahjones –  respecting space and time are fundemantal.
davefleet –  Dina Kaplan: There are hundreds of video sites out there. 3 segments:
– Viral video (YouTube, Daily Motion) – one-offs
– Friends and family (Flickr video) – only care if you know the people
– Original TV shows/video blogs (BlipTV) – episodic content
[Comment From Keith from CoveritLive]
Hey Dave/Leah. No need to publish this. Just saying hi and thanks for using the software. Say hi to mr. ingram there for me…he’s a reasonable fan of the software.
davefleet –  Keith – happy to publish 🙂 Great software!
leahjones –  Bill now talking about considering ethics, privacy when adding these technologies. “we’ve had 20 years to eat our own dog food”
davefleet –  Audience question: What methods are you going to be using to get people to come to your content?
leahjones –  Hearing a store about an apple employee. Her laptop was stolen and she did a remote log-in to get the camera and take pic of thief.
davefleet –  CTV – realizes they’re never going to build their own social networks. People are already on others. Can share videos from their player. They have had success posting on other forums, though.
davefleet –  Qn: Asked for more about net costs are going up – server space, bandwidth costs etc. How are these people addressing this?
leahjones –  Asking about the scarcity of technology and shifting our brains to think about it being really available.
davefleet –  Dina Kaplan really likes every question being asked. “That’s a great question!” Wonder if anyone’s ever asked her a bad one.
leahjones –  Bill started as a digital musician–making instruments in New York in 1982.
leahjones –  “The folk instrument of the future.” is what someone called the synthesizer when Bill was just making them.

Prediction of house music and use of cheap digitial tools to make folks music. Folk music = rap, hip hop, house

davefleet –  CTV – still thinks there’s room to work with partners to get costs down.
leahjones –  “That’s why I write for business week and not a blog. I can get one idea a month, I can’t get one idea a day.” Bill Braxton
davefleet –  Rob Spence – produced a documentary for CBC last year. Wanted to release video before online but there was fear it would reduce TV audiences. How do you deal with that?
davefleet –  Guinevere: Cannibalization by other media only matters if you only measure TV.
davefleet –  There will be simultaneous release models. Companies have to be sure they’re measuring them all to take into account those viewers.
davefleet –  Audience q: Can advertisers choose where their ads go? Eg avoiding sexual content, etc
davefleet –  BlipTV: (liked this question too) Advertisers can be matched up with specific sites. Other options – the ad networks – are broader – reliably reach more people but less control.
leahjones –  There are times when Face to Face is most appropriate. (like dating)

Bill and a colleague are closer when they are physically seperated (Toronto/Redmond) than when they are both in Redmond.

leahjones –  When for whom, why.
davefleet –  Amber: Approx 7 times higher recall rate for ads in podcasts than ads on TV
leahjones –  Q from audience: is there a danger of increasing the digital divide? How can you address this?

Rancher in Calgary without high speeding access, Nigeria or Croatia?

leahjones –  BB: has a lot of concerns about access to internet and digital divide.

In some places, the telephone wire is important b/c of the copper in it and not the information it can carry.

leahjones –  Sorry folks, got too busy listening to this answer to live blog it.

A good conversation about clean water vs laptops. Use of technology vs. value of technology.

davefleet –  Andre – people don’t know that there’s the potential to be watching TV shows at the click of a button. Once they do realize, the market may grow quickly
leahjones –  Don’t make the assumption that technology will save things. Can you invest in a different way to break down digital divide. (BB)
leahjones –  Bill Buxton is talking about door open/door closed and the implications in different cultures.

Yes. Doors were a big challenge for me in Argentina and created a lot of miscommunications.

davefleet –  Audience member worried about talk of advertising on CBC shows – “I don’t want to have to pay for it twice.” Good point – Canadians funnel $1bn each year to the organization already.
[Comment From Jonathan]
This session was also liveblogged here
davefleet –  Out for a break. Back for the next session – Â I’ll be at “The New Front Page” I think.
[Comment From Jonathan]
We’re going to cover “The New Front Page” too at . We’re probably sitting behind you 🙂
2:51 [Poll]
Which panel are you in?
The New Front Page

 ( 100% )

Managing The Mozilla Way

 ( 0% )

Making Online Videos People Want To Watch

 ( 0% )

None of them!

 ( 0% )

davefleet –  At “The New Front Page” panel – where are you?
leahjones –  *waves* I’m in new front page as well with Sylvain Perron from Edelman Digital in Montreal. Yes, he made me walk in front of the whole room with my computer out.
[Comment From Jonathan]
Opposite side of the room to you (saw your pic on your blog), by the video cameras.
[Comment From Brad Buset]
New front page – front right ish- I’m the guy in pants
davefleet –  Keith McArthur just walked in. Hoping he keeps his pants on today.
leahjones –  Keep hearing people talk about trusting items recommended by people like you.
davefleet –  Ingram just asked if by letting people vote on the content they like it just furthers the views people already have
davefleet –  Daniel Burka – general scores that make the Digg homepage represent the general zeitgeist. The community has a broad range of interests so doesn’t further one view.
davefleet –  Candice: OurFaves is very entertainment-focused so is very open to contributions. GigPart is more focused on friends – more in-depth recommendations
davefleet –  Audience member: Digg seems to be very subject to audience passions – e.g. 4/10 stories on homepage might be pro-Obama videos
davefleet –  Burka: That’s sort of the point. Still, promotional algorithm on digg changes all the time to stop interest groups from dominating the homepage. They’re also looking to put less emphasis on the homepage so more specific interests are catered-to
davefleet –  Digg is working on an amazon-style “people who liked this story also liked…” feature
leahjones –  That’d be cool. Matt just asked Digg about an algorithm that will allow people to suggest…

jinx. Dave got it first.

davefleet –  Pema Hegan (GigPark) – already uses that – it’s core to their model.
KDPaine –  Discussion of relationships how are theyy defining trust and creditbility, they ask whether they want to trust someone. Wonder how robust that data is ??
leahjones –  Digg giving away ideas to GigPark. (hee hee)

Folks are very interested in making suggestions.

davefleet –  Interesting discussion on the different sites, but it seems to be a little too much “me me me” and not enough insight for my liking.
davefleet –  Digg is very transparent – if you post something it’s there for everyone to see. It gets difficult with sites like Facebook – some things your friends can see, some things friends of your friends can see, some things people in your geographic network can see. Makes it difficult to know who can see what.
leahjones –  Really? Digg is to get your voice heard? I don’t think that is what I would say it is for.
KDPaine –  Digg assumes that clicking on a story implies trust, not sure I agree. Â Would be nice to see a trust factor attached
davefleet –  I think the trust implication only applies to people who are really into Digg. Many people likely not aware.
davefleet –  Digg has a diversity score – looks for unique activity by users
KDPaine –  sites go back to traditional media — KDP & P research backs that up, by the way — but as sm pushes msm to the periphery do we end up with anarchy?
leahjones –  Daniel from Digg keeps mentioning Pownce. Are Pownce and Digg the same company? Is hea power user? did he go to Digg from Pownce?
davefleet –  Leah – Daniel works/worked (?) for both
davefleet –  Digg doesn’t replace the back pages of sites – just skips the front page. Goes right to the meaty content
davefleet –  CNN’s homepage is ridiculous – laughable stories mixed with “important” news. Digg helps (theoretically) to skip the crap. I’ve found it often promotes inane stuff, though.
[Comment From Brad Buset]
from the front page of CNN right now – “Are smiley face killers stalking college men”
davefleet –  Burka – It’s a poor design decision if you think you’re the only site people come to
davefleet –  I’d also say if you’re focusing on your homepage and neglecting your site’s deeper content, that’s a worse design decision
davefleet –  Q: Is there a trend for trad. media putting emphasis on “most blogged” content?
davefleet –  I’m intreagued by the idea of letting people vote up/down stories on newspaper hompages – thus affecting their prominence on the site
davefleet –  GigPark is focused on small groups. Don’t have a problem with scale for that reason. Happy with groups of 4/5 friends getting on the site and recommending things to those friends
davefleet –  Q: How do people decide when they have enough friends on GigPark to make the site valuable to them?
leahjones –  dave – I do like how the NYTimes show most emailed or most blogged, on top of the regular way that the editors lay out the site.
davefleet –  A: It often starts with friends asking each other questions and one person thinking of the site
davefleet –  (last answer was from Pema Hegan from GigPark)
davefleet –  Google Friend Connect/OpenID will help a lot with finding groups of friends on networks.
leahjones –  But do regular users understand OpenID or Data Portability?
davefleet –  From Joe Thornley (@thornley) on Twitter:
“Pema Hegan: GigPark has a broader strategy of not just being a destination, but being a utility that you can plug into anywhere. “
davefleet –  Interesting: GigPark Facebook application has 11 daily active users. Yep, 11.
davefleet –  GigPark Facebook App:
davefleet –  Q: With RSS, isn’t it the case that in a few years regardless of your site type, you’ll be feeding into RSS readers?
davefleet –  A: (from Candice Faktor – OurFaves) – some people like that format, others don’t. Different things for different people. Not sure that answered the question.
leahjones –  “all rss feeds are created equal”

Not at all.

Partial vs. full feed. Feeds with images or without. Feeds with ads or without.

davefleet –  Burka: You can do much more richer/nuanced stuff on a site compared to an RSS feed.
davefleet –  Burka arguing that he can see paper newspapers dying out. Production costs too high. I’m not so sure. Think they’ll be around for a while yet.
davefleet –  “The New Front Page” panel is over. Back in a bit
andrewcherwenka –  ready to liveblog the private v public panel with rachel sklar.
andrewcherwenka –  Private Vs. Public – intro by rachel sklar
andrewcherwenka –  sklar googled all 3 panelists to see what was public knowledge. Â good for her.
leahjones –  At Private vs. Public with andrew. *waves* I’m on the left side, second seat in, about six rows back. blue shirt.


andrewcherwenka –  mark kingwell, author.
nancy beyn, associate professor uKansas, avid online writer.
ken anderson, government dude.

leahjones –  Why bother with this question at all?
andrewcherwenka –  hey leah! Â thought i’d be the only one here, representing the dave fleet empire.

davefleet –  At the Government 2.0 panel – talking about Metronauts case study
andrewcherwenka –  kingwell: Â we’re playing catch-up to a contemporary version of an age-old problem.

baym: disconnect b/w perception and reality. Â what we say is google indexed and visible to the masses.

leahjones –  “the illusion that this is a private thing that I’m doing for people i know” when users forget that most is indexed and there are lurkers.

andrewcherwenka –  government dude (ken anderson): Â gives example of a nurse with his patients, real example from hospital nearby, posts pics publicly.

govt faces the “not so fun underbelly”.

4:28 [Poll]
Which panel are you in?
Where’s the business in show business?

 ( 0% )

Private vs public

 ( 60% )

Government 2.0

 ( 20% )

None of them

 ( 20% )

andrewcherwenka –  sklar: should this be regulated or controlled simply by common sense?
davefleet –  Portland took public spaces and turned them into fun places for the neighbourhood
leahjones –  “relying on common sense is the worst case scenario”

talking about poor judgement vs. malicious behavior

andrewcherwenka –  sklar: who regulates, and how much?
andrewcherwenka –  (leah – this is fun – i’ll take every other thought).
davefleet –  Three phases to Metronaut – research & engagement – activation – post-engagement. Still in the first phase.
andrewcherwenka –  kingwell: we must address the question of regulation in a genuine public space.

davefleet –  First phase is a draft regional transportation plan
leahjones –  the experience of a local counselor found a facebook page reported to be him.

(What happens when someone takes your identity and creates a voice/bad behavior under your digital identity.)

davefleet –  Activation – second phase – is a broad community engagement in addition to regular stakeholder engagement
andrewcherwenka –  anderson: talking about commissioner (ttc i think) that had a fake profile about him posted by a hater.

sklar: brings up brandon manitoba kid facing criminal charges for a mocking profile of a teacher. Â

davefleet –  Gathering insights in 3 ways – explicit idea & solitions, tacit insights from observing conversations and latent insights that identify needs that aren’t known until the time.
andrewcherwenka –  kingwell: Â google group poster used his name.
leahjones –  Rachel Sklar is talking about Julia Allison.

(Is 1938media around?)

davefleet –  This really feels like a government presentation – 3 bullets, speak over each in turn, totally different to other presentations today
andrewcherwenka –  sklar: Â soliciting from us (the audience) what we know about each other. Â psych. Â decided not to.
andrewcherwenka –  baym: Â anything i say to anybody, anytime, anywhere, can be top of digg tomorrow. Â online/offline activities are blurring.
leahjones –  “a presumptive right to privacy”
leahjones –  “control your narrative” aka brand.

If you choose to keep something private, you must make active effort. A friend, Amy Guth, says she hides plain sight from her readers.

leahjones –  Talking about controlling your narrative, controlling your brand, controlling your google search.

“You can make choices and educate yourself, but you can’t stop people from saying what they want to say”

andrewcherwenka –  baym: if people know who you are then the weird anomalous stuff will stand out as untrue. Â (implying we have an element of control).
davefleet –  Just had the first walk-out of the session. Will there be more? Does the law of two feed apply here?
davefleet –  Haha feet, not feed
andrewcherwenka –  sklar: obama bittergate. Â what’s on and off the record? Â as a journalist you’re bound to rules of journalism. Â asking anderson if there’s a “turning point” story.
[Comment From Brad Buset]
Rachel Sklar – enthusiastic yet rambling….I like it
davefleet –  The consultants identified a few people who might have fixed firm opinions and were prepared for them… in the end, didn’t have any problems
davefleet –  “Value” gained from the consultation: new ideas, people feeling engaged in the process, awareness of the process, unexpected themes that emerged during the process
davefleet –  As part of the consultation process, they attended/organized (not sure which) Transit Camp – unconference on transit
andrewcherwenka –  sklar: Â brought up anonymous handles.
baym: Â there’s both good and bad, from vicious comments to otherwise hidden truths.
kingwell: Â the private cast ballot is the ultimate positive example.
andrewcherwenka –  question time
andrewcherwenka –  thornley is stealing buset’s question.
leahjones –  Whoa! Thornley has a great question. “should there be a Creative Commons approach to privacy like there is to Copyright?”
davefleet –  Lessons learned:
– Integrate community engagement with communications strategies
– Building an online community is only one part of an online engagement approach – need to engage where people are today
– Community evangelist is a key competency that must be developed, enabled and supported
– Community is drawn to the legitimate centre of power and influence, which needs to pay back with trust and transparency to enhance legitimacy
davefleet –  Yes… I copied that from the slides. Right there – that’s the problem with this session.
leahjones –  Can someone tell me what the Gladwell Incident is?
andrewcherwenka –  Kingwell: Â accredited media outlets have explicit consent, bootleg youtubers have implied consent.
leahjones –  Now talking about surveillance cameras and the effect on crime rates.
davefleet –  Community evangelist role – was a big challenge – took a couple of months to convince government to let them have that role
andrewcherwenka –  rob spence: Â 11,000 TTC surveillance cameras being installed, but they don’t prevent crimes.

anderson: Â the cameras currently there are used for safety. Â hoards of people on a tiny subway platform.

andrewcherwenka –  anderson: Â bus drivers and their union requested cameras for perceived safety.
davefleet –  From @DoctorJones on Twitter (the 1 second it’s been up today): “Building it is 1/10th of the job. You have to mobilize the community to show up to the site.”
andrewcherwenka –  anderson: Â cameras now only record for a short time, automatically overwritten, encrypted to block faces, can decrypt with 2 signatures including toronto chief of police for criminal purposes. Â it’s not orwellian.
leahjones –  Sounds like Government 2.0 and Public vs. Private should be merged.
andrewcherwenka –  alec saunders from ottawa: Â police cameras monitoring ottawa parks. Â what privacy rights do we have wrt this footage?

anderson: Â lots.

leahjones –  The only way you can protect your reputation online is to put it there yourself. (from the audience)
davefleet –  Q: How did this come about? Does gov’t really want to engage?

A: Mayor of Burlington was genuinely interested and open to input. Had Wikinomics on his bookshelf

andrewcherwenka –  baym: Â identities are public things. Â crafted from others. Â identities cannot be controlled, but we can exercise preventative maintenance and damage control.
leahjones –  “dr. baym is an idiot” says dr. baym.

(sorry, I had to. this is out of context and not on twitter.)

andrewcherwenka –  ha ha!
davefleet –  Metronauts very successful. Now being taken to the next level – being put on vehicles. Not sure what that means…. consulting on wheels?
davefleet –  Mark Blevis just called Government 2.0 the “jackpot session of the day.”
leahjones –  “the only antidote to corporatization is democratization”
leahjones –  Is talking about privacy a luxury?
leahjones –  Privacy is a personal right. Corporations have secrets, not privacy.
davefleet –  Not that hard to find people online who are interested in transit. Just search the networks – you’ll find plenty of people who are happy or really pissed off. Usually the latter.
andrewcherwenka –  anderson just mixed up chris anderson’s 3rd model of free. Â it actually is free since costs are reaching zero. Â he’s describing the 2nd model where somebody pays.
andrewcherwenka –  q: Â what will it take to make privacy cool enough for people to adopt technology that enables it?
leahjones –  How do we make privacy cool to teach young’uns to take it seriously?

just get burnt once.

leahjones –  This is the second session that has made me want to go to graduate school. Can I major in Privacy & Digital Advocacy?
andrewcherwenka –  overall, here’s what i learned: Â those that fight against publicity are those at highest risk. Â the only way to control our brands (including our own name) is to get enough accurate info out there that it outweighs the inevitable inaccuracies. Â laws won’t protect us.
leahjones –  Private/Public space.
andrewcherwenka –  anderson: Â facebook privacy – not all sites are the same – all it takes is one “privacy chernobyl” to cause change.
leahjones –  It’ll take a “privacy chernobyl” to make people take things seriously.
leahjones –  see you tomorrow, live blog.
andrewcherwenka –  out
Thank you for reading today.              

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Dave Fleet
Managing Director and Head of Global Digital Crisis at Edelman. Husband and dad of two. Cycling nut; bookworm; videogamer; Britnadian. Opinions are mine, not my employer's.